EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH LARRY JAGAN, A BURMA SPECIALIST

 BY Lao Htaw, Independent Mon News Agency

 4 October 2004*

Interview with Larry Jagan, a Burma specialist on politic and he said “I think that the opening of the second session of the NC gives the ethnic leaders a new opportunity but they must be strong. If I was an ethnic leader, I would go to the NC but I would not buckle under. They have to protest, they have to speak out, they have to force the authorities to allow them to meet each other. And more importantly as an ethnic leader I would want to see all ethnic leaders signing up to one agreement.   Please read the whole interview at the below. 

 
Loa Htaw:        Larry, thank you very much for giving me a chance to interview. First of all, let me introduce to you again that my name is Loa Htaw. I am working for Independent Mon News Agency, as well as for a Mon newspaper. My first question is how do you think on the cease-fire groups, which have been attending the SPDC’s arranged National Convention (NC).

 

Larry:               Sorry, I am not quite sure what are you asking.

 

Loa Htaw:        I mean that do you think they should attend the next coming NC or should they leave?

 

Larry:               Well, this is a question that is very difficult for me as a journalist, an independent journalist to answer. If you asking me to make a value judgment!

 

Loa Htaw:        I only would like to get comments from you.

 

Larry:               (Laugh…ha…ha…ha...)Well, I mean it is a difficult question to answer because I think the ethnic minority should attend the NC because it will give them an opportunity to be still involved in the constitutional drafting process. However, they have to feel that their points of view is actually going to be accepted that the proposal that they have put forward will be considered by the convener. If they feel that their points of view is going to be ignored, and all their presence is just doing for trying to give NC some credibility, then I think the ethnic leaders have every right not to attend.

 

Loa Htaw:        Now, they already know that the most important points what they have demanded in the first section of NC are being ignored especially based on federal state and democracy. So do they need to continue the next coming NC?

 

Larry:               My understanding is that they have accepted the papers that they have put forward – that the convening committee has accepted the papers – but there is no guarantee that it will be discussed the next section. I also understand that the military intelligence officers have been going around, talking to the ethnic leaders and bringing messages from Khin Nyunt, which says if you don’t participate, we will draft the constitution any way.

 

Loa Htaw:        But Larry of course they have accepted some point in the paper but the most important points their demanded are being rejected? So, do you think they should still attend again because although they attend again they can’t demands any more and what they have demanded are already being rejected? How do you think?

 

Larry:               My understanding is that not everything has been rejected and that may be an opportunity to ask for further discussion. I think there will be ethnic leaders are in a very difficult situation. If they don’t attend the NC second session, then it is actually going to isolate them. If they do attend and there isn’t free debate and discussion then they’re going to lose credibility with their own people. I think that they are in a very difficult situation. I believe that what the ethnic groups should be doing is actually coming up with an alternative proposal, with which all the ethnic groups agree. Not just some. And the needs for ethnic rights is something that every ethnic group, no matter what their political position is, every ethnic group believes in the need for ethnic rights, and for education in their own ethnic languages. These are that every ethnic agrees on. And therefore it’s important that all ethnic groups come up with a universal position. The problem with the NC is that the authorities are trying to play one group off against another by offering economic concession to some members of some groups, rather than tackling the real political issues. I think the only way the ethnic groups can do that is by having a united front.

 

Loa Htaw: Larry, in the Mon area although during NC the government has closed down some Mon National Schools in the area and the land confiscation are still continuing.   So, do they still need to attend again?

 

Larry:               (Laugh ---- ha …ha …ha… ) Well I think in any article you write you can point out these things. Now I mean, I am afraid my position is still the same, that I think the ethnic leaders are very difficult situation. What I would say is that, because the NC is taking place the government has not given any guarantees that during that period there would be increase of democracy. After all, the political parties (The National League for Democracy and the Shan National League for Democracy) aren’t even being allowed to participate. Their people are being arrested. It seems to me that even though the NC may be discussing a new constitution that should improve the rights of all Burmese citizens including ethnic minorities, the practice is that on the ground nothing has changed.

 

Loa Htaw:        Larry, do you see the Burmese NC is a real NC and can you tell an example on a foreign country NC especially what are differences from Burma NC?

 

Larry:               Well, let’s take the second question first. The NC that the Burmese regime has formed to draw up a new constitution really is something that’s relatively unique. Very few countries have done any thing like this. And if they have, it’s usually been a century ago. We saw something like a national convention in Australia when they drew up their constitution in the late 19th Century. So, I think in modern times, the NC that Burma is running is actually unique. So, there are no parallels outside Burma that we could look to and say: this is how the NC should operate. Having said that, though, there is contradiction between what the NC is supposed to be doing: that is drawing up a new constitution that will be fairer and guarantee the rights of Burmese people, and the attitude of the government, which hasn’t changed. It is exactly the same as it was before May the 17th and after May the 17th, when the NC opened. I think the biggest issue that an international observer would be concerned about is the lack of freedom of speech.   Any NC that is drawing up a constitution should have total freedom of speech and association of the members of NC. They should say what they like. They should also meet and talk to who ever they want and unfortunately, that is not part of the NC. So, it runs counter to international norms of political behavior. But there is no model that the Burmese could or should be following. It seems to me that the NC is totally stalled. To me it’s too early to condemn the NC as a total failure and a sham. One had great doubts about the NC when the political parties weren’t allowed to participate. That to me is reducing the credibility, severely reduces the credibility of the NC. If the NC is not allowed to discuss ethnic rights then that also reduces the credibility of the NC.

 

Loa Htaw:        So, you mean that without they allow to discuss about ethnic rights, without UN participation as an observer and without the media, cease-fire groups should not attend the next session of the NC?

 

Larry:               (Laugh, ha…ha…ha…) It is not for me to say what they should do. What I would say is without political parties, without the ethnic rights and demands being discussed and without transparency (that doesn’t have to be the UN or international reporters or local reporters) but without some kinds of transparency, then the NC really has very little credibility. Credibility is the word I would use.

 

Loa Htaw:        Can you give me one example of foreign country NC?

 

Larry:               No, there isn’t any. What I mean is that most places where they drew up constitutions in a similar way back in the 19 Century in American and Australia. The world is a hundred years on. What the NC in Burma is something, which is almost unique.

 

Loa Htaw:        For example if you are an ethnic leader position do you decide to attend or not Larry?

 

Larry:               If I was an ethnic leader, in this stage I would be tempted to attend, although we have seen problems in the first session of the NC. I think that the opening of the second session of the NC gives the ethnic leaders a new opportunity but they must be strong. If I was an ethnic leader, I would go to the NC but I would not buckle under. They have to protest, they have to speak out, they have to force the authorities to allow them to meet each other. And more importantly as an ethnic leader I would want to see all ethnic leaders signing up to one agreement. The problem with the NC is that if they speak alone, they will be picked off. Every trade unionist knows: in unity there is strength. The ethnic leaders’ biggest mistake in my view is not forming a strong alliance of ethnic groups. I know there’s been discussing, I know there’s been changing of views, but what is really needed is a strong alliance of ethnic groups. So, that when they go back to NC, they can speak from a position of strength, because the ethnic groups have an opportunity.  Only the ethnic group, they’re the ones who could have the strength; they’re  the ones who have an influence on where the NC goes in the future.

 

Loa Htaw:        Ok Larry, let say some ethnic groups leave the NC and will against the government again. At the time do you think they will get attention from the international community?

 

Larry:               I think the international community is in position, if only some ethnic groups don’t attend the NC, if it isn’t a universal boycott, if it isn’t all the ethnic groups, then I think the international community will find it difficult to support the ethnic groups which have not gone to the convention. They will be sympathetic but they will have difficulty supporting the ethnic groups who decide not to go to the NC. I think as far as the international community is concerned they have limited influence. We’ve seen that General Than Shwe doesn’t care what anyone in the outside world thinks about Burma. You can level sanction; you can pressure Burmese representatives in international meetings, but in the end, he just will not budge. And in some ways, the more pressure you put on Than Shwe the less likely he is to change. So, I think the international community in my view is important. It has no power. If some ethnic groups do not attend the NC, then it will give journalist like myself an opportunity to write stories about the NC. The problem is for a journalist who wants to expose what is happening inside Burma. If the NC meets every day and no body says a word, that is not a story. If two or three, or even one big ethnic group boycott the NC, that’s a story. That means that journalists will be able to write an analysis. So, there will be international attention, even though I doubt there will be international support.

 

Loa Htaw:        Yes. Recently government also changed it some ministers such foreign minister and deputy minister. Do you think this changed will affect the NC?

 

Larry:               I think the changes of the foreign minister and deputy foreign minister will not affect the NC as such. I think what that show is that the hardliners - specifically Than Shwe - are strengthening their control of power. I think what it shows is that Than Shwe in particular is not prepared to listen to the international community. I think what it does is it shows the regime is pulling down the shutters. It’s closing the windows and doors of Burma to the outside world, and that will affect the political future of Burma. In my view it won’t affect the NC.

 

Loa Htaw:        Do you think the ethnic groups should agree with whatever constitution comes out?

 

Larry:               In theory the Khin Nyunt road map to democracy was something that seemed to have credibility. There seemed to be concrete stages towards a form of multiparty democracy. NC would meet freely. It would be inclusive; the political parties would be involved. It would draw up a constitution, which would then be put to referendum and, if voted on or if it was accepted by referendum then there would be new elections. In theory that is all very good. But we’ve seen that from stage one the NC is not inclusive. The reality is that the military are going to draft the constitution that they want. Even the Prime Minister Khin Nyunt has told the ethnic groups that is what’s going to happen. Unfortunately that constitution is probably not something that is going to be what the majority Burmese people including the ethnic groups want.

 

Loa Htaw:        My last question is as they show in the MRTV, they claim everyday that the NC is going to be successful. How do you think on that?

 

Larry:               The Burmese military may claim that the NC is going to be successful and it is going to draw up a constitution I am afraid I am doubtful. What we have seen all the way along is broken promises by the regime, and I have little faith that the constitution that is drafted at the end of the NC will be one with, which the Burmese people as a whole will be happy.

 

   * The document is not dated, but was posted on the Internet on 4 October 2004