INTERVIEW OF THE PRESIDENT WITH RAD

[moe@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]

*EPF302 06/24/98 
TRANSCRIPT: INTERVIEW OF THE PRESIDENT WITH RADIO FREE ASIA 
(Believes China trip will make progress in many areas) (5520) 

Washington -- President Clinton told reporters June 24 he believes his trip
to China will result in progress in a number of areas, including
non-proliferation and human rights. 

In an interview with three Radio Free Asia reporters denied visas by the
Government of China, Clinton said: "I think we'll make some progress in
non-proliferation. I think we'll make some progress in dealing with the
Asian financial challenges.... I think we'll make some progress in dealing
with energy and environmental issues which are very, very important." 

The president said he thought there would be some progress in bilateral
scientific cooperation which, he said, has already yielded some significant
benefits. 

"And I hope," he said, "whether it's obvious or not at the end of the trip,
that we will advance the human rights dialogue. In a structural way let me
say I think it's important that we advance the rule of law cooperation that
we have developed -- we have begun with the Chinese. And let me explain why. 

"If you can get a country like China to change its legal system, even if the
leading edge issue is commercial, it's in the systems of law that protecting
commercial rights and protecting rights of free speech and citizenship tend
to merge. And one of the things that I would like to see over the long run
is that I would like to see us move to the next step where China moves from
reassessing its position on this or that or the other political dissident
from time-to-time and releases them, to the point where we have a systematic
change in the way people are treated. I think that should be our long term
goal," he said. 

"This is a difficult trip because of the differences between us, but it's
also an important trip because of our common interests, and because so much
is at stake," the president said. 

Following is the official White House transcript: 

(begin transcript) 

THE WHITE HOUSE 
Office of the Press Secretary 

Embargoed For Release 
Until 3:00 P.M. EDT 
Wednesday, June 24, 1998 

INTERVIEW OF THE PRESIDENT WITH RADIO FREE ASIA 

THE ROOSEVELT ROOM 

10:20 A.M. EDT 

Q: Mr. President, thank you very much for taking the time to do this with
us. We know you have a busy schedule and we appreciate the gesture. 

Q: The first question: Dissidents in China recently issued many open letters
hoping to meet you during your stay in China. Why you cannot meet them and
what message do you want to send to them now? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well first of all, I have determined to try to meet with
as many different kinds of people as I can when I'm in China, but I also
want to make decisions based on what I think will maximize the impact of my
trip for all the objectives, which include the advancement of human and
political rights. One of the things we have pushed very hard for is the
adherence of the Chinese government to the UN Convention on Civil and
Political Rights, which President Jiang has said he will sign in the fall,
in September or October which, as you know, will among other things require
China to begin to admit on a regular basis international observers to talk
to citizens, including political dissidents, on a regular basis to try to
make sure that they are not abused in the practice of their civil and
political rights and that they begin to be integrated into the main stream
of society. 

I want this trip to advance that cause. And I will structure my meetings,
and also the meetings of all my staff people appropriately. But I am glad to
see so many of these dissidents speaking out and feeling free to speak out.
It's obvious that they have concluded, some of them probably at some risk to
themselves to do this -- I do believe, as I told President Jiang when he was
here that free political speech and expression is plainly a precondition for
any modern state. And over the long run it is essential to the strength of a
country. I mean, we live in an information age where people's ideas
basically grow the economy. 

So I think that this is a long-term battle that we're all involved in and I
believe we're on the right side of it. And I think in the end the Chinese
will agree. 

Q: But Mr. President the dissidents say that it is disheartening for them
that you are not taking this opportunity to make a statement by attempting
to meet with them or the families of the Tiananmen students who fell. 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I will make a lot of statements, I worked very hard
to get a lot of the dissidents out of prison and I will continue to work
very hard on that. And I will do whatever I think will increase my impact.
And I won't do anything that I think will actually undermine my ability to
get real results. 

But keep in mind we also have some other very important objectives right
now. Not objectives we will sacrifice for human rights agenda to but
objectives that we will pursue in addition to that. 

We have very important non-proliferation concerns which have been given new
urgency because of the nuclear tests in India and Pakistan. We have very
important concerns about trying to stabilize the economic situation in Asia,
which if it got out of hand could have an enormous destructive impact on
hundreds of millions of people in China, and a number of other issues that
we're working on. 

So, I will do my best to pursue all of our legitimate concerns and never to
minimize the human rights issues but I have to structure the way I spend my
time on this trip in a way that I think is most likely to further the
interests of the United States as well as the values we have that we want to
-- and the things we're trying to do for Chinese people. 

Q: Mr. President, when you are being welcomed in the Great Hall of the
people adjacent to Tiananmen Square will the image of the one lonely man
standing in front of a tank trying to prevent it from mowing down students
in Tiananmen Square flash through your mind even for a second and cause a
twinge because you have accepted the invitation to be welcomed? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, first of all, I've thought about that one man a
lot. I think that's one of the -- obviously one of the most vivid pictures
of the last 20 years that anyone has seen. But I think it's important for
me, if I'm going to go to China, to not expect that just because I'm the
American President I should be greeted in any fashion different from any
other world leader would be greeted there. 

And even I noticed that many people, including the Dalai Lama and Wang Dan
and others have said you know, you should go, you should be received in the
way that the Chinese have always received world leaders. That's been the
center of their government for hundreds of years now. And you should speak
your mind about human rights, religious rights, political rights. I think
that's the right thing to do. I don't think we should confuse ceremony with
substance here. 

I think that for me to say -- when I invite someone to the United States our
welcoming ceremonies, unless there is some physical reason to move it, for
example the back lawn is covered, it's always at the back lawn of the White
House unless it's bad weather or unless the whole lawn is covered with
something else. 

I couldn't very well invite someone to the United States and say, "Well, I
would like for you to come see me on a state visit but I won't let you come
to the back lawn of the white House." And I think that it's important to
distinguish here between hundreds of years of history that has occurred at
that spot and within those walls, of which what happened at Tiananmen Square
is definitely a part, but it's not the only thing that's ever occurred
there. And I think that it would be wrong for me to expect the Chinese
government to change the way they welcome all world leaders. 

On the other hand, it would be equally wrong for me to go there and take no
notice of the continuing difficulties with human and political rights. So I
expect to honor the ceremony and I expect to advance what I believe in there
and what America represents. 

Q: The Chinese government has officially denied the visa of three of us. If
the Administration cannot negotiate successfully over such an issue how do
people expect that your government come up successfully with the other
complex issues such as the human rights issue? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well for one thing visas are normally not negotiable by
anybody. We don't negotiate with anyone else over who gets a visa to the
United States. Our problem is that you were denied visas, we believe, for
the wrong reasons. 

I supported the establishment of Radio Free Asia. It exists because -- in no
small measure because it was a significant issue in the Presidential
campaign of 1992. I talked about it repeatedly and I've done my best to
expand the operations of Radio Free Asia. The very purpose of Radio Free
Asia was to beam honest, open debate into Asia so that, as you know, just as
we do these interviews you know you ask me whatever questions you wish to
ask and you press me on matters that you wish to press. 

And I think they made a big mistake. It was especially troubling to me that
they denied the visas and thereby denied themselves getting any credit for
having given visas to people that they traditionally have not given visas
to. They were quite broad. 

The Chinese government has always taken particular offense with my support
of creating Radio Free Asia because they believe that we did it for the
purpose of undermining the government of China. The truth is we did it for
the purpose of advancing freedom of the press, and freedom of debate, and
freedom of speech throughout Asia. And all governments that do not recognize
these things should feel that, in effect we are opposed to them, not because
of particular policies -- apart from the idea that we think everybody ought
to have free access to ideas. So, I think they made a mistake. 

But keep in mind I wouldn't -- that's not the same thing as negotiating over
non-proliferation or economic issues or anything else because every nation
reserves to itself the complete and unilateral right to decide its visa
policies. 

Q: I have a follow-up question. Our feed has been heavily jammed by the
Chinese government. Are you going to raise this issue when you are meeting
with the Chinese leaders? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes. Yes, I am. You know if you look at -- there are now
400,000 Chinese who have access to the internet but we estimate there will
be 20 million in the next couple of years. If you look at what happened in
Europe, in Communist Europe, and how it was basically flooded with tapes and
CDS, as well as with Radio Free Europe, there is no way -- and if you look
at the fact that as China's economy becomes more internationalized; there
will be more and more people coming to China. 

If you consider the fact that two and a half million Chinese traveled abroad
last year, and many of them were not part of any government -- if you will,
censored government operation. It is a losing battle to try to keep ideas
that are contrary to official dogma out of the public debate. It is, in the
end, not in the interest of China. 

China will be -- you see I believe the Chinese government missed a great
opportunity, and I don't have the same attitude some people do I don't think
they did act in their long-term self interest, I think they missed a great
opportunity; I think by giving you a visa and letting you come in and talk
to people and emphasize the continuing human rights concerns, I think they
would be showing strength because they would be showing the capacity to
change. And I believe that that in the end is the ultimate test of any
system of government. You have to have the capacity to change, to respond to
legitimate human aspirations. You don't have to give up the society's
dominant values or cultures. 

There are many things within the whole history of Confucian thought and
culture in China from which all societies could learn many positive things.
But we know from just studying the landscape of the last 50 years in the
world that oppressive government in the end will be resisted by people, and
in the end is inconsistent with developing a free economy. You can't say
we're going to have a free economy but we're going to try to keep controls
on what people know, what they hear, what they can say. 

And so I think -- from my point -- I had a slightly different reaction than
you did, I know you're bitterly disappointed and angry and I think you
should be, but my view is that they would have shown strength and judgment
by giving you the visa and letting you come in and talk to people who would
criticize them. I don't think America is weakened because every day someone
takes the floor of Congress and criticizes me; every day someone writes an
editorial and criticizes me; every day there are -- I just don't believe
that. I think that -- and of course all liberty, any freedom -- let me say
this -- any freedom granted across the board is bound to be abused from time
to time. It is in the nature of liberty that it is subject to abuse which is
why the framers of the Constitution talked about how important it was for us
to build responsibility internally into the character of our citizens. 

But in the end we're stronger when we debate and differ, and we're more
likely to get the truth, than if we control access to information. So that
will be a big -- yes, I will ask them to stop jamming Radio Free Asia. 

Q: Thank you. 

Q: Mr. President, another issue which has sort of been a losing issue is the
issue of Tibet and the Chinese government meeting with the Dalai Lama and
negotiating greater autonomy with the Dalai Lama. The US government has in
the past put pressure on the Chinese government to do that. They have so far
not done that. You have assured the people in this country and in Tibet that
you are taking a message to the Chinese. What is new about this message?
What in this message is going to make the Chinese listen and actually sit
down at the table with the Dalai Lama? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I think it is -- first of all, let me say at this
particular moment I don't feel free to say everything I'm going to say to
President Jiang because of some of the sensitive work I've been doing on
this issue for the last several weeks. But again I would say my general
point is -- not just to President Jiang but to the other influential members
of the Chinese government -- forget about our difference over what's right
and wrong. We think it's wrong to deny the Dalai Lama access to his people
in Tibet. We think it's wrong for the people of Tibet to be subject to any
sort of religious, cultural or economic discrimination. 

We have not advocated independence for Tibet, separation, civil war,
anything disruptive. We have advocated, if you will, autonomy with
integrity. It's supposed to be an autonomous region anyway. It is our
understanding that that is the position that the Dalai Lama has taken. So my
argument to them -- the larger message will be -- let's lay to the side for
the moment the fact that I believe what is happening is wrong and they
don't. I do not believe it is in China's interest. 

China has been very -- was adroit in trying to find a balance between taking
back Hong Kong without destroying what was special about Hong Kong. Now I
know Hong Kong is an economic engine but a country is made great by more
than its economic engines. And the Tibetan Buddhism as a religious faith, as
a culture and a way of life, the ability of the Tibetan people to be free of
any kind of economic or other handicaps, and the signal it would send to the
rest of the world about China's attitude about human dignity, and diversity
and difference of religion, race and opinion -- the gains to China from
doing this would far outweigh any marginal extra tension they might feel
about the long-term future of Tibet in this context. 

So my argument is going to be, you know, from the point of view of the pure
self interest of the Chinese government. This is an easy issue. This is not
a difficult issue. Doing the right thing here is plainly in the interests of
China. That's the argument I'm going to make. 

Q: But they don't see it that way, Mr. President. This argument has been
made in the past. They obviously don't -- 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: They don't see it that way because they continue to
believe that the only -- that it's just one step to losing part of China. I
think it's important for Americans to understand that -- this is something
that I've learned not just in dealing with China but in dealing with all
other countries -- countries are like people, they have a collective memory.
And in order to deal with nations effectively when you have differences with
them, it's important to understand what their worst nightmare is. Because if
we're dominated by our nightmares we make decisions that are not rational in
the eyes of other people. 

For example, when dealing with Russia in trying to expand NATO, we had to
remember that the Russians were invaded by Hitler and by Napoleon. And that
even though no one is now alive who was alive when Napoleon invaded Russia,
it is something that is deeply embedded in the psyche, in the consciousness
of the Russian people. So that if territorial changes are made along the
border of Russia you have to be sensitive to that and work it out. 

China is -- the government of China, the leaders of China, their worst
nightmare is disintegration, you know, because they have these memories of
when China was weakened and vulnerable to foreign attack, vulnerable to
government by war lords, vulnerable to the opium trade, vulnerable to
everything because of the disintegration of the central authority.
Therefore, to an outsider who knows nothing of China's history the
importance to China, which is so large, and so big, of the one China policy
vis-a-vis Taiwan, of getting back Hong Kong, of making sure that nothing
could ever happen and Tibet -- to promote any separatism. To us, we see only
the downsides of those things. To them, a lot of the things they do which to
us are unacceptable they do, I believe, because they're too much in the grip
of the historic memory of disintegration. 

And one of the things I have to do is to not lose my patience or my
determination, to work until I help to create for them a new and different
historic reality so that they feel more confident in doing what I believe is
the morally right thing to do, as well as what is in their own self interest. 

But I think it's important to recognize that -- you can't assume that --
none of these people would be in positions of influence in the largest
country in the world if they were without intellectual ability, without
sensitivity, without the capacity to be effective. So when they do things
that the rest of us think are completely irrational we have to try to
understand what it is that makes them do that. 

I just think they could get more goodwill in the rest of the world, for less
effort, by doing the right thing on Tibet than nearly any other issue. And I
think that getting them to the point where they will see it that way depends
upon their having a clear understanding of what a resumed dialogue with the
Dalai Lama would lead to, not just in a year or two years but in 10, or 20,
or 30 years. 

And I'm not sure the United States has ever had the kind of systematic
effort on this that I have been expending for the last few years and that I
will continue to expend as long as I am in office with the fond hope of
being successful. I intend to continue to work on this very, very hard. 

It's obvious that we have no power to compel them to do this. There is no
tool, no incentive, no anything because nothing is as important to the
Chinese as the territorial integrity of their country, nothing; because of
their history. So I have to find a way to argue my case and prevail and I
will keep doing this. I care very, very much about this and I have been
working on this hard for the last couple of years and I will continue to do
it as long as I'm President. 

Q: How high is it on the agenda for this trip? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, for me it's a big thing. It's a big thing because I
think countries -- I think all countries -- I think the United States has
done this, too. None of us are -- you know, we all make our mistakes and we
all have our memories but I think when a great country, because of an
inaccurate reading of the facts of a situation, or being in the grip of a
historical nightmare makes an error the consequences can be quite severe. 

For example, it took us two years and a few months to get the American
public to the point, and our allies to the point, that we could go in and
end the Bosnian War. Now, a lot of people looking from the outside in said,
"Look at this terrible situation in Bosnia, why don't they just go and do
something about it, why are they taking two years?" 

Well, the people who say that didn't live through the experience that our
military and our people did in Vietnam. Bosnia was not Vietnam for a lot of
different reasons. An outsider could say to all of us, "America, why don't
you understand this is not Vietnam." But it took us a while to work through,
as a people, and with our allies, why it wasn't, what it was, and what we
had to do, what our clear moral responsibility was, what was in our national
interest. We did the right thing. And in the lifetime of a country two years
is not very long to take to do that but it took -- it was a lot of hard work. 

And you would be amazed in the debates and the discussions, if you just go
back and read things that were in the public in the beginning there were a
lot of people who were afraid, "Oh, this is Vietnam all over again." 

So I am -- I've developed some patience in working on this. I'm impatient to
get the results but I understand what it's like to try to change the mind
set of a nation, the psychology of a nation, when it has deeply embedded
historical experiences that become a part of the way the leaders of a nation
look at everything that happens thereafter. 

Q: So from Tibet to the Korean peninsula what do you expect to accomplish
from this trip over the Korean issue? Are you going to appoint a special
envoy to the Korean -- North Korea? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well right now I think the -- what I would like to do is
two things. First of all, I want to get a reaffirmation of the partnership
we have with China in the four-party talks. I want to send a clear signal to
North Korea and to South Korea that we're prepared to do our part, but I
also want us to clearly support the bilateral efforts that are now going on.
Since President Kim Dae Jung was inaugurated in South Korea I have been
quite encouraged at the attitude he has taken toward, you know, reaching out
directly to the North. 

It appears to me based on the work we did to end -- the work that we did
with China together to end North Korea's dangerous nuclear program, which
had a lot of involvement from Japan and Russia and other countries all
supported us. It appears to me that there are some of these matters that
divide the North from the South that will have to be resolved directly
between the two Koreas. And then there are other things that they will
actually need the framework of the four-party talks to work through; and the
active involvement of China and the United States. 

We will be talking about that. But again, this whole matter has acquired
greater urgency because of the nuclear tests on the Indian subcontinent. You
know, we have to keep the commitment of North Korea in place not to have a
nuclear program, particularly since they have such facility in building
missiles. It's a very, very big issue. 

And I think this is one issue that the pace of the resolution of this
depends a lot on the calculations of the people in North Korea and South
Korea. We actually could move rather quickly on this or they could drag it
out the way they have been. But for the United States and China, what we
have to do is to keep the lid on it, if you will, and keep it moving in the
right direction. And I think we're committed to do that. I think we will be
successful there. 

Q: What about the special envoy? Are you considering a special envoy? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Not at this time because of the level of direct
involvement between the North and the South. And because right now it
wouldn't be consistent at this moment, at least with the nature of the
four-party relationship, where it's a partnership with the United States and
China working with the Koreas. If there came a time when I thought it was
the right thing to do I would obviously discuss it with the Chinese and with
the South Koreans and decide. 

Q: Mr. President, I know we are running out of time here so what -- critics
of this trip you're going to make to China in a short while have said that
this is going to be more about symbolism then about substance, what exactly
substantially do you hope to achieve on this trip and are you planning to
make some strong speeches on the issue of human rights and freedoms when you
are in China, including at the welcoming ceremony at Tiananmen? 

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well it's interesting, a lot of the critics who say that
then turn around when you ask them what they want me to do what they want me
to do is to make it even more symbolic and give up any substance. 

So all my critics who say this is about more symbolism then substance when
you ask them what they want me to do they want me to make it even more
symbolic and give up the substance. 

I believe we will make some progress in a number of areas. I think we'll
make some progress in non-proliferation. I think we'll make some progress in
dealing with the Asian financial challenges, I hope we will. It's a very big
issue that could directly affect the lives of Americans. I think we'll make
some progress in dealing with energy and environmental issues which are
very, very important. You know the pollution in China has now made
respiratory problems the number one health problem of children there. And
it's a huge issue. 

I think we'll make some progress in our scientific cooperation, which has
already yielded some significant benefits. And I hope, whether it's obvious
or not at the end of the trip, that we will advance the human rights
dialogue. In a structural way let me say I think it's important that we
advance the rule of law cooperation that we have developed -- we have begun
with the Chinese. And let me explain why. 

If you can get a country like China to change its legal system, even if the
leading edge issue is commercial, it's in the systems of law that protecting
commercial rights and protecting rights of free speech and citizenship tend
to merge. And one of the things that I would like to see over the long run
is that I would like to see us move to the next step where China moves from
reassessing its position on this or that or the other political dissident
from time-to-time and releases them, to the point where we have a systematic
change in the way people are treated. I think that should be our long term
goal. 

Those things won't make as many headlines, but they will change more lives,
so I would expect there to be some advances in this whole rule of law,
cooperation, we've been doing. And if we show progress in all these areas, I
think the trip will be very much worthwhile. What I'm trying to do is to
have -- I don't mean to say. I think symbols are important, actually, but I
think it's important that in the end what matters is results. Are lives
changed for the better? Is the direction of the country better over the long
run? 

This is a difficult trip because of the differences between us, but it's
also an important trip because of our common interests, and because so much
is at stake. It seems to me that the chances of doing good for the American
people and for the stability of the world far outweigh the dealing with the
difficulties presented by the trip. 

I've seen the Chinese work with us, for example, with great reliability -- I
could just mention a few things -- on the nonproliferation treaty, the
comprehensive test ban, the chemical weapons treaty, the observing most of
the missile technology control regimes requirements, stopping cooperation
with Pakistan and Iran on a lot of their nuclear programs, other programs.
It's not -- they've been very good allies in many of these areas. 

They gave great leadership to our meeting the other day on the permanent to
five statement on the Indian and Pakistani nuclear tests. And I think if you
look at the areas where we've made progress, they make the argument for a
continued, disciplined engagement where we try to advance our interests, but
we never pretend that our interests are only security issues or our
interests are only economic issues where we merge our human rights and our
political concerns with these other matters. And we just pursue the whole
agenda and we do the best we can. I think it will produce more results than
any available alternative. 

Q: A strong speech at Tiananmen? A strong speech at Peking University? 

THE PRESIDENT: There is no speech at -- 

Q: Oh, there is no speech at Tiananmen, 

THE PRESIDENT: At the arrival ceremony, which is -- well, you know where it
is, right off Tiananmen Square. There is no speech, it is just -- you know,
and by the way, the United States is the only country that I'm aware of
where we have little remarks at the arrival ceremony. 

Every country I go to it is the same thing. I get out, you go to through the
ritual and then you go in and begin your meetings. But I will say what I
have to say in other forums 

Q: Thank you very much, Mr. President. We appreciate your time. 

THE PRESIDENT: I enjoyed it- 

Q: And we hope you will wear this hat 

THE PRESIDENT: I love this hat. It's quite pretty. 

Q: Hey, you look good in it. 

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very, very much. 

Q: Have a wonderful trip. 

(end transcript) 
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